So Islam Is "The Tolerant Religion" Eh?

[Kyuuketsuki]

'Cheating' Woman Stoned To Death
Tuesday October 28, 2008

A woman accused of adultery has been stoned to death by Islamists in Somalia.

The 23-year-old woman was buried up to her neck in front of hundreds of people in a square in Kismayu and stones were hurled at her head.

She was dragged out of the hole three times to see if she was dead.

When a relative and others surged forward to rescue her, guards opened fire and killed a child.

It is thought to be the first such public killing by the militants for about two years.

Witness Abdullahi Aden said: "A woman in green veil and black mask was brought in a car as we waited to watch the merciless act of stoning.

[Read The Rest Of The Article Here]

Oh I'm sure whatever Moslem's read this will try to jump through every whacky reasoning hoop there is but I'll tell you this ... you don't find these kind of crimes done in the name of atheism and yeah, if you think I'm claiming that the moral stance of most atheists is superior to that of most theists, you'd better bloody believe it!!!!!!

Kyu

[rlrose328]

OMG!!!!!

I can't breathe...

I can't even conceive of such a thing happening in this day and age, regardless the country or its inhabitants.  I guess that makes me naive.

[Will]

"Religious tolerance" is a contradiction in terms. Christians burned women to death by the thousands during the burning time. Muslims stone women to death for being raped. Jews used to put people to death for working on Sunday.

[curiosityandthecat]

Honor killings, as they are called, are not rare. Neither is female circumcision, or, as it's more accurately labeled, female genital mutilation.

It doesn't make you naive, rlrose328. It's a touchy subject that not a lot of people really understand. Once we start getting into it, it brings up all sorts of issues like cultural chauvinism and moral relativism. Who are we to say they're wrong? Are we justified to say that it's immoral when we do things they would consider just as immoral, if not more so? Our lives are determined by reason and what we call human rights. Their lives, in contrast, are determined by family honor and religious piety.

Don't get me wrong; I think it's terrible that a woman will be stoned for what we consider a small, personal issue in comparison to some other aspects of social life. But, it's more complex than just, "They are bad for doing that."

[Asmodean]

...I'm lazy today, or I would have written a book on the subject. For now, let me just say the following:

Don't be too quick to condemn something you have never had to deal with.

It all comes down to cultural differences. If you were born and lived in an environment where the value of human life, the "right" and "wrong" and the "good" and "bad" were radically different from your current views, you may have found your current views to be condemnable. For instance, NOT stoning a woman to death for "cheating"

A revolution is not the right way to reform anything (Here: if you tell people to stop doing something and protest and/or threaten when they go on about doing it, they will just continue on and not listen to you). Reforms have to happen through cooperation and that is only possible on a productive level through understanding.

[rlrose328]

I'm all hip to the cultural differences issue.

When I was 19, I worked as a typist for the welfare department.  This was in the early 80s, when Hmongs were coming to the central valley California by the droves.  They and other asian cultures have very different means of disciplining children... some involving burning coins and large pieces of wood.  The children's services folks were mortified when they were initially told that there is little we can do to stop them because it's "cultural" and we can't mess with their culture.

Now that I'm an adult, I say YES we can mess with their culture... when they're in our country as those people were.

As for this Islam issue... I understand they do things differently in their culture and they believe we are horrible awful people for letting our women have <gasp> RIGHTS </gasp>, but I do believe, and will continue to believe, that stoning someone to death is not right in any culture, in any land, in any way, shape, or form, for any crime... but particularly one involving intercourse.  ESPECIALLY if it's just one member of the rape/adultery, etc.  If she was stoned, the man should have been as well.

Does that make me intolerant of their beliefs?  I guess it does.  And I'm okay with that.  I also thought those people should have been told to stop burning their children with pennies, especially on their genitals, for some little minor offense like playing with a ball when they were told not to, but I guess that's just me.

I don't care what your culture is... killing a human, by stoning or any other means, for a crime such as adultery is just plain wrong.

[Asmodean]

I don't care what your culture is... killing a human, by stoning or any other means, for a crime such as adultery is just plain wrong.

Indeed it is - for me and you and them. But it is perfectly right for someone else.

[rlrose328]

I don't care what your culture is... killing a human, by stoning or any other means, for a crime such as adultery is just plain wrong.

Indeed it is - for me and you and them. But it is perfectly right for someone else.

I respectfully disagree.

[curiosityandthecat]

Now that I'm an adult, I say YES we can mess with their culture... when they're in our country as those people were.

Those people? You mean Muslims? You do realize that the subject of this article takes place in Somalia, which is in eastern Africa, and not from Afghanistan, which is in the middle east, right? That's like a Protestant in Ireland getting mad at a Catholic in South Korea because their car was set on fire. Lumping together folks with similar religious beliefs is what caused 9/11 (which is to what I'm assuming you are referring as them being "in our country as those people were"), as the radical Muslims saw the degradation of God's earth being caused, first and foremost, by the heathen Christians, specifically Americans. We are the scum of the earth, after all, right?    

That's what makes this topic, specifically, so interesting. Adultery, in a western, Judeo-Christian country, rarely amounts to anything more than embarrassment and possibly a break-up (occasionally a "crime of passion", but rarely). However, imagine this...

A town in which Islamic law is the highest law has an interesting and rather old-fashioned social system. In it, reputation and good-standing are paramount. One cannot be trusted in business without being a man of God, with an obedient wife, and respectful children. Were the wife to do something that would jeopardize the rest of the family (by disrespecting the patriarch), it would quite literally turn their lives into a living hell. The rest of the community would shun the man, causing him to lose business, becoming destitute. Others' children would taunt his children, forcing them into fights and getting into even more trouble. The repercussions are immense for one simple act of infidelity; something we, here, as I said, see more as inappropriate than life-or-death.

In no way do I condone this sort of system, but one cannot simply close one's eyes and wish it away. Conversely, telling someone, frankly, that they are wrong actually works to reinforce the behaviors or ideas in question. The only panacea in a situation like this is education; calmly, quietly, and without reproach, saying, "It doesn't have to be this way..."

[Sophus]

Every religion has it's corrupt followers just as atheism has some crooked members too. You can't label everyone in any group. Do you really think all atheists are perfect? Evidence that says otherwise would be quite a number of serial killers.

[Wraitchel]

"In no way do I condone this sort of system, but one cannot simply close one's eyes and wish it away. Conversely, telling someone, frankly, that they are wrong actually works to reinforce the behaviors or ideas in question. The only panacea in a situation like this is education; calmly, quietly, and without reproach, saying, "It doesn't have to be this way..."

Nicely stated.

[Asmodean]

In no way do I condone this sort of system, but one cannot simply close one's eyes and wish it away. Conversely, telling someone, frankly, that they are wrong actually works to reinforce the behaviors or ideas in question. The only panacea in a situation like this is education; calmly, quietly, and without reproach, saying, "It doesn't have to be this way..."

Catwords are wise.  

[Kyuuketsuki]

Every religion has it's corrupt followers just as atheism has some crooked members too. You can't label everyone in any group. Do you really think all atheists are perfect? Evidence that says otherwise would be quite a number of serial killers.

No one is claiming atheists (or atheism) are perfect but I defy anyone to point out (and justify) an example of any atheist killing or brutalising others in the name of their religious stance ... religion OTOH is replete with such things both historically and today.

The simple fact is that good people do good things, bad people do bad things but it takes religion or a similar ideology to make good people do bad things ... I have few doubts that those who stoned this woman to death would be upstanding members of their community, perhaps even lauded for their actions .

Kyu

[rlrose328]

Now that I'm an adult, I say YES we can mess with their culture... when they're in our country as those people were.

Those people? You mean Muslims?

No, I was referring the Hmongs, the subject of the paragraph above that quoted line.  And yes, I realize that the stoning took place in Somalia, not Afghanistan.  YOU realize, do you not, that speaking to me like that is condescending?

And I understand how their social system operates.  I don't agree with that.  I lived with a mom whose favorite line was "what would the neighbors think" and while that isn't as scary coming from her as it is in the real scenario you presented, it's a horrible way to live.  To always be scared of what others are thinking.  It's where we're headed in THIS country, with the Christian repression.

Like I said at the beginning... I'm naive.  I want everyone on earth to get along and to treat each other with respect and courtesy but not DEMAND that everyone bow to your will.  I KNOW it's not possible and that makes life hell for me.  Then I see a news report like this one and it really upsets me.  I don't CARE what their society/religion dictates... it's just wrong in my eyes.

This just smacks of "that's just the way things are" and I hate that concept.

[rlrose328]

Every religion has it's corrupt followers just as atheism has some crooked members too. You can't label everyone in any group. Do you really think all atheists are perfect? Evidence that says otherwise would be quite a number of serial killers.

First, just wanted to say I love your tagline... that is one of my favorite songs!  :cool:   Seriously, though... on an atheist mailing list, I ran into a guy who refused to apologize for saying something horrible about my recently deceased (at the time) father because if he did, he'd have to admit he felt guilt and guilt is a Christian concept he chose to ignore.  

Finally, just because someone kills, and kills prolifically, doesn't mean they are atheist.  Jeffrey Dahmer was raised Christian.  Ted Bundy gave his only interview to James Dobson, Focus on the Family (ultrafundamentalist).  The BTK killer was Christian.  Robert Yates was 7th Day Adventist.  It seems everytime I read about mass killers, they were usually raised with heavy-duty religion.